Additional Info about Occult Training

In my last post (Q&A: Luciferianism, Occult Training, and Dispelling Some Misunderstandings), so much was going on in my head with all the connections I was trying to make for you, the reader, that I forgot to share one very important aspect of occult training!

Sorry ’bout that. :\

I shared about my experiences with occult schools in the astral, and I shared about my experiences with charismatic “christian” training in the physical that was teaching occult doctrine, but I forgot to share about charismatic “christian” occult schools in the supernatural. And to be clear: I’m aware that it’s not actually Christian, but the people who are involved in this call themselves “christian.” It’s all a part of this wave of “charismatic witchcraft” that has infiltrated Christian groups, and I’ll just briefly share my experience with this type of training.

☛ Note: if you don’t understand about dissociation and about the systems of dissociative individuals, this article may not make much sense to you. You can read an overview of what dissociation is by following this link: “An Overview to Understanding Dissociation and D.I.D.

My Experience

My experiences with this type of occult training comes from one source: through the programming of “deliverance counseling” I went through with Dan Duval of Bride Ministries.

This charismatic occult training took place in three different ways:

1. through dream insertion

2. through “school-room” type settings that were set up in my system through the programming of “deliverance counseling”

☛ To read about this type of programming, see:

https://askcarolynandloren.com/book/section-three-some-teachings-and-practices/i-spirit-man/#spirit-man-characteristics

https://askcarolynandloren.com/book/section-four-important-helps/i-end-time-programming/

3. additional occult training one-on-one with the demonic that took place in the astral realms

⇒ Dream Insertion

This is a relatively common practice among occult groups, but it is also practiced within some charismatic occult groups. While it didn’t happen very often, a few times during the “deliverance counseling” process, Duval, my “counselor,” would show up in my dreams and talk to me about things.

No, I can’t recall specific things that he told me. I might have journaled about it at the time, but I don’t want to go back and re-read my journals. It brings up a lot of bad memories. But from what I remember, he was mostly encouraging me to continue listening to the “angel” that was guiding me, as well as encouraging me to continue following the “Jesus” that was in my system. (More on this in a moment.) And the fact that Duval was there at all was enough to be wrong, regardless of what he did or didn’t say.

At the time, he claimed to me that he wasn’t consciously aware of this happening. That was his story at the time, anyway. But when I brought it up to him and told him what was happening, he thought it was an awesome thing. It really fed his ego, and he didn’t find it to be anything to be concerned about. All he did was ask me to tell him what he said and did, since he couldn’t remember it.

In fact, he made a Facebook post about this very thing in November of 2016 (this post was made several months after I left his sham of a “deliverance counseling”):

DD's Dream Insertion.png

Notice what he did not say. He did not say that he’s not doing this. Instead, he said to “test it.” Why? Because the possibility exists that it really would be him in the astral realms.

Perhaps in some instances with other people, these appearances by Duval were faked by the demonic. Who knows… it’s possible, I guess. But the point is, this is an occult activity, Duval knew this was happening, and he enjoyed knowing it was happening. Of course, publicly, he gave a “solution” to this problem by saying to “test it.” But by reading his post, it’s clear that the only reason he gave a “solution” was not to solve the actual problem itself, but to supposedly prevent people from being fooled by a fake Daniel.

Hmm… Imagine me giving the world’s largest eyeroll right now….

So whether or not he was consciously aware of this happening as it was taking place, it was going on, and he knew about it.

You might be wondering how someone can be involved in this and not even be conscious of it. Here’s how: when the demonic are using an individual, and when the person has created a type of dissociation within themselves through unsafe spiritual practices, these things can happen without them even being aware of it when it is happening.

⇒ School-Room Settings to Teach Occult Doctrine

The counseling process with Duval was one that encouraged me to allow “angels” into my system, as well as to allow a “Jesus” into my system. In many cases, through this “deliverance counseling” situation, Duval would outright “command” these so-called angels to come into my system, and since I was open to allowing this to happen, they came right in.

Bringing this “Jesus” into my system was also done through the counseling process itself when I was sharing my memories with Duval. Following the advise of his “mentor,” Preston Bailey, Duval would “ask Jesus into the memory” and “ask Jesus to come into the system.” This opened up the spiritual space inside of me and my system to being invaded by a demonic entity that went by the name “Jesus” as well as “Yeshua” (this is a translation of the name of “Jesus”).

☛ Note: This is but one example of how programming was being inserted through counseling. To understand what I mean by this, please read our book. 🙂

So not only was Duval inserting programming through the counseling process, but various types of other programming were set off that had been previously inserted by programmers when I was a child, including Jesus programming and angel programming.

Subsequently, Duval would encourage me to speak to, interact with, and learn from these spiritual beings. He would then “command” these so-called angels to do different things within my system, and he would ask this “Jesus” to do other things, as well.

☛ Note: This might be a bit off topic, but related to “learning” from these spiritual beings, there were many times within counseling sessions that Duval would ask this “Jesus” and these “angels” questions about different spiritual matters, and I was expected to relay the answers back to him. I was essentially being treated as a medium, and even though I was deceived at the time and thought that these spiritual beings actually were Jesus and the angels, it still felt very uncomfortable in the extreme. Sometimes I would relay the messages to him, but other times, to get out of that uncomfortable position he was putting me in, I would lie and say, “I’m not sure what they’re saying. Sorry.” I always wondered (but never spoke aloud), “Why don’t you just ask God to reveal these things to you directly? Why am I being treated like a middle-man?”

Anyway… so through the visualization and declaration process that made up the bulk of “counseling” (programmingunder the guise of so-called “christian counsel”) one of the things these supposed “angels and Jesus” did was set up a system of classrooms within my system, and the different parts of me would take turns being taught by these “angels” and by this “Jesus.” I, as the one who consciously lives life, wouldn’t necessarily sit and be taught in these school-room settings, although I sat in class a few times to see what was going on.

Bottom line, these school systems that were set up is a clear example of programming that took place within this supposed “deliverance counseling,” and ultimately they were used as a way to teach esoteric meanings of scripture, reinforcing the charismatic occult teachings that I was receiving in the physical.

⇒ Charismatic Occult Training in the Astral

While the other parts of me were being taught in the classrooms that had been set up in my system, I was being guided and taught by a particular being who called himself an “angel,” as well as by the “Jesus” who was in my system. During my so-called “prayer” time (the way I was “praying” was actually a type of meditation), they would take me to places in the astral and I would be taught different things about spiritual matters, particularly esoteric interpretations of Scripture, as well as teachings on different types of things that are related to “quantum or fractal spirituality.” It seemed all very “enlightening” at that time; now I recognize it for what it is: a bunch of esoteric rubbish.

⇒ The Results of This Charismatic Occult Training

If this “school” that was programmed within my system was inspired by God for my healing and deliverance, and if these “teachings” I was receiving in the astral really were from angels and from Jesus, then you’d think that these things would start to have a positive effect on me. You’d think I would eventually start to feel better. You’d think my emotions would begin stabilizing. And you’d think that I would start to be able to understand Biblical concepts and would be able to start studying the Bible on my own without getting triggered. But those things didn’t happen.

What happened instead was that I became increasingly agitated, increasingly depressed, and my mental state deteriorated to the point where I became very suicidal and I nearly lost my mind. I’m still healing from that entire ordeal, but it’s only by the grace of God, Who pulled me out of that situation, that I’m as far along in my healing path as I am now. I’ve got a long way to go, but I’ve also come a long way. 🙂

⇒ Some Reasons Why People Think This Charismatic Astral Training is Okay

For those who are dissociative and going through “deliverance counseling,” as well as those people who may not be dissociative, but who are following after the same ungodly, spiritual practices as this so-called deliverance counseling, they may think that this  type of astral training is okay.

Here are some reasons why:

1. They believe these supernatural experiences are of God. In many cases they believe they are being led by angels of God and are being taught “hidden secret spiritual knowledge” and the “deeper meaning of Scripture.” This certainly appeals to their ego, and they don’t recognize that these “angels” are, in fact, demonic beings. In other cases, they may believe they are being led by and taught by “Jesus,” and they don’t realize they are being taught by a demonic being who has put on a “Jesus” façade.

Either way, since they have been deceived, they accept, welcome, and seek out this type of occult training. It makes them “feel good.”

2. They are motivated by and focused on things that are not of God, specifically:

● They have a focus on following others, rather than following Jesus Christ (man-centered, not God-centered).
● They are focused on and motivated by developing gifts and abilities.
● They are focused on and motivated by having spiritual experiences, and on seeing and producing different types of spiritual manifestations.
● They are fascinated by and seek out “heavenly places” and going into supernatural realms.
● They have a focus on and are motivated by an ungodly spiritual warfare.

And again, these things make them “feel good” and they appeal to their ego.

3. With some who have gone through mind-control programming, they have been programmed with specific scripts that are causing them to seek out things that are not of God, and that are keeping them caught up in belief systems that are not based on Scripture that has been properly interpreted within context. In some cases, this can be related to specific types religious programming, such as Jesus programming or angel programming.

4. Related to this thought, some are suffering from the general brainwashing within ungodly spiritual environments, and this is causing them to seek out things that are not of God, and is keeping them caught up in belief systems that are not based on Scripture that has been properly interpreted within context.

But one huge reason why those who are dissociative think that these types of schools set up by these so-called “angels” is okay is because when they are going through the same type of “deliverance counseling” process as I did, and when their “counselor” is someone who is supposed to be “the expert” on how to help them find a “faster and better healing,” then they trust their counselor! And so, as their “counselor” leads them through a visualization process, they will allow him or her to program these schools into their system, thinking that it’s okay, because it’s supposed to be for their healing.

Another huge reason why those who are dissociative think that these types of schools are okay, is because the individual will think that these schools are simply normal places within their dissociative system. But let me explain why this is not true in the cases with people who are being guided by demons.

⇒ Schools Within the Dissociative System

It’s likely that some dissociative people have normal school settings within their system. I don’t, but if some do, this would be normal given normal circumstances.

One reason why those who are dissociative may have school rooms or schools set up in their system could be because there is trauma associated with schools, and these places within their system might be representative of that trauma that they keep isolated to that one area. In this sense, they are able to dissociate from that trauma, to one degree or another. This can be helpful in gradually processing the trauma, but it can ultimately be harmful if that trauma is kept isolated and never dealt with. So, accessing these places can have both positive and negative affects on the individual.

On the other hand, the dissociative individual may purposefully (or spontaneously) set up a school room within their system so that an internal self helper (ISH), or another helpful alter, can teach the other parts of them about healthy boundaries, to help them process trauma or grief, or any number of reasons that have the end goal of healing in mind. Given the situation for those who are dissociative, these types of “schools” within the dissociative system would be normal.

Personally, I now shy away from doing too much intense internal system work. I explained the reasons why in our book, so I won’t go over it here. You can read it for yourself, if you’d like: “On System Work.” My Heavenly Father does the work now, and sometimes I’m aware of what is going on inside my system, and sometimes I am not, but I’m aware of the healing that is taking place over time. If there ever comes a time when the Father sends a qualified counselor my way, then I might do some heavier system work, but not with that counselor, that’s for sure! I’ve learned my lesson in that regard!

Anyway… within the context of “deliverance counseling programming,” these “schools” that are set up within the system of a dissociative individual, are not normal, and they involve the demonic (in my case, disguised as angels) entering into the dissociative system of the person and setting up a system of schools whereby the individual and their alters are taught occult doctrine. And in some cases, they may be connecting the system of the individual to schools that are set up in the astral. This is programming, plain and simple, and can be made possible by particular programming that is present in doctrines of demons. (To understand why I make this statement, read our book. 🙂 )

So this is not a normal experience for someone who is dissociative to have. Or for anyone else to have, for that matter.


Please consider this short quote from our book:

“[Some] ‘Christians’ have the notion that since ‘Satan has a counterfeit for every truth that comes from God,’ then they can glean knowledge from occult doctrines. By this faulty thinking, since they believe the occult is just a counterfeit of the truth of God, they take the occult lies and turn them upside down, calling it a Biblical truth. This is aided by using certain Scriptures and twisting them to mean something they do not mean, which, by the way, is something the average occultists does regularly. In this way, they feel that the occult activities they practice — such as astral travel, dream insertion, sending curses, or necromancy — are not actually occult. They have this crazy idea that because they are a “Christian,” this makes practicing the occult to not be the occult. Since they believe that God created the original, and since they believe they are “saved,” they are under the fatal misconception that what they enter into is of God. Their actions and attitudes reflect their foundational belief that being a “Christian” makes it okay for them to pick up knowledge and teachings of the occult, but they have been deceived and led astray by these doctrines of demons.”

If you seek after spiritual knowledge and understanding by using occult methods, you will not find the truth. It is not okay to engage in occult activity, and then try to defend such actions as being of God because you believe that “God has a genuine for every one of Satan’s counterfeits.”

Receiving and seeking after these types of trainings by spiritual beings is not of God. It doesn’t matter if you call yourself a Christian or not, participating in this activity is occult.

So stick with what is Scripturally sound. Don’t seek after spiritual experiences with spiritual beings. You will be led into deception. Instead, seek after a relationship with your Heavenly Father and submit to Him!

Don’t seek after spiritual beings to give you “special secret esoteric knowledge.” Instead, study the Bible, interpreting the scriptures properly and within context!

And line up everything with the Word of God: every experience, every thought, every doctrine. If it doesn’t line up with God’s Word, throw it out.

Blessings,
Loren ❤


Related Reading

Q&A: Luciferianism, Occult Training, and Dispelling Some Misunderstandings


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7 thoughts on “Additional Info about Occult Training

  1. Hi Loren. I just came across a christian website and Facebook called the Praying Medic. He has written quite a few books. One is called Seeing in the Spirit Made Simple and another is called Travelling in the Spirit Made Simple. I was shocked and disappointed. I have never heard a Christian say something like this.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. He’s one of the ones Carolyn and I had in mind when we wrote certain things in our book. His “christianity” and teachings is nothing more than occult doctrine. Daniel Duval is also acquainted with this “preying medic” and he did some podcasts with him. I’m not sure how many, though.

      Liked by 1 person

  2. Hi Carolyn and Loren. Do you believe that all deliverance ministries are ungodly or is there a proper biblical way to be delivered from generational curses etc. I wasn’t sure if there was anything in your book that would answer this question or not as I haven’t had a chance to read it in its entirety yet?Thank-you 🙂

    Liked by 1 person

    1. There is a need for and a Biblical precedence for deliverance, and in our book, the majority of Section Four was spent talking a lot about how to find deliverance and healing in a Biblically-sound and spiritually safe way.

      Thanks for the question, Marjorie. 🙂 Blessings. ❤

      Liked by 2 people

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